tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1101438868458660054.post3428904149424172917..comments2024-03-04T06:54:50.622-06:00Comments on Reactive Champion: Why Cues Can Be ReinforcingCrystal (Thompson) Barrerahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01738188430244886019noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1101438868458660054.post-2731227258578191772011-04-16T18:51:08.181-05:002011-04-16T18:51:08.181-05:00Denise, I guess I can't speak to how it would ...Denise, I guess I can't speak to how it would hold up in competition. In theory, it sounds good, but we aren't trialing right now, and when we return, it will be to venues that allow food in the ring. Thanks for talking it through with me, though. It was a very interesting conversation!Crystal (Thompson) Barrerahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01738188430244886019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1101438868458660054.post-16935469768386916322011-04-16T09:46:25.150-05:002011-04-16T09:46:25.150-05:00ok. Backchaining automatically does what you are ...ok. Backchaining automatically does what you are saying since a dog works into a comfort zone (a cue that is known and hopefully sufficiently reinforced that the dog is looking forward to it). But backchaining is a teaching concept, not a trialing one.<br /><br />I can see how this cue as reinforcer could be used in training but cannot see how it helps in competition. I've often heard people talk about using cues to reinforce prior cues in competition, but I've noticed those people either don't compete, or do competitions where the reinforcers are not removed. That doesn't' mean there isn't something to the theory, but since my area of interest is getting into competition where there is no reinforcer, I'm actively looking for new ideas that will help with that end goal.<br /><br />Thanks for writing about the topic.Denisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16293127126317475938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1101438868458660054.post-75731245535676824742011-04-15T20:30:57.891-05:002011-04-15T20:30:57.891-05:00Denise, I'm afraid I don't have an answer ...Denise, I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you. I'm not terribly well-versed in chaining in general. My very unsophisticated understanding is that the difference between chaining and back-chaining is simply the order in which you teach each behavior in the sequence. So, chaining would involve teaching behavior A then B then C, while back-chaining would involve teaching behavior C then B then A.Crystal (Thompson) Barrerahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01738188430244886019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1101438868458660054.post-91418236072316209062011-04-15T16:09:44.025-05:002011-04-15T16:09:44.025-05:00Hmm. How would you differentiate that from backch...Hmm. How would you differentiate that from backchaining?Denisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16293127126317475938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1101438868458660054.post-92060603108076839492011-04-14T21:50:14.120-05:002011-04-14T21:50:14.120-05:00Denise, I'm not an expert on this- it's a ...Denise, I'm not an expert on this- it's a relatively new concept to me- but I think the point is that you can use cues as reinforcers to create behavior chains. Dog does behavior A, is rewarded by the cue for behavior B, which is rewarded by the cue for behavior C, (going on for behaviors D through however many it takes to create your chain) which is then rewarded with a treat (play, whatever). Done this way, I think it would just be another way teach your dog to work for prolonged periods of time.<br /><br />This should get you through all the elements of an exercise. Then, between exercises, you could reward the dog with a behavior the dog truly enjoys, praise, etc. Those rewards would happen in the ring, which should prevent the ring from becoming a bad place. <br /><br />In other words, a cue can reinforce the proper response to another cue. Ultimately there will be some primary reinforcer, but I don't think it has to be as heavily as you're thinking. It certainly doesn't need to be continuous reinforcement. You just need to find the right balance.<br /><br />That said, I agree that what you're describing is also good training: making the job fun and interesting, being a person my dog wants to work with, and creating a variable reinforcement schedule are all things I try to do. And I appreciate your concern about maintaining the ring as a good place to be- "ring wise" dogs are no fun at all!Crystal (Thompson) Barrerahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01738188430244886019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1101438868458660054.post-4463845178437562592011-04-14T21:26:14.888-05:002011-04-14T21:26:14.888-05:00I cannot see the value of this "cue as reinfo...I cannot see the value of this "cue as reinforcer" if you have to heavily reinforce it on an ongoing basis. Might as well just say "yes" or click with your mouth in the ring. Unfortunately all of these are basically lying to your dog, and he'll figure that out soon enough. To me, it makes more sense to build in value for yourself (also a tertiary reinforcer, by the way) in the ring. Teach dog to expect to work a long time to earn a reward, even in training. Make the work interesting whenever possible, simply because its fun to learn and do stuff with your body, not just for a cookie. I'm really struggling to see the value of this "cue as reinforcer" because the dog will soon learn that it doesn't have value in the ring. Then you have a negative situation...the ring is a bad place to be. I'd avoid that at all costs. Why not use a very thin variable reinforcement schedule, adding any naturally reinforcing activities whenever possible?Denisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16293127126317475938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1101438868458660054.post-68352660033878223612011-04-13T17:46:36.248-05:002011-04-13T17:46:36.248-05:00I think Sophie has it- that for a cue to be reinfo...I think Sophie has it- that for a cue to be reinforcing, the behavior needs to have a relatively high rate of reinforcement. I plan to write about that in my next entry, by the way. :)Crystal (Thompson) Barrerahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01738188430244886019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1101438868458660054.post-61965851019684284192011-04-13T11:25:31.139-05:002011-04-13T11:25:31.139-05:00I do think that for a cue to become reinforcing, i...I do think that for a cue to become reinforcing, it must be given a reward *every* time. If you put it on a variable reinforcement schedule, it may fail to be reinforcing because it isn't an opportunity to self-reward (through responding appropriately to the cue, and earning whatever it is that they want): it's a -possible- opportunity to do so.<br /><br />Then again, this is based mostly on my own observations of my dogs.<br /><br />Jess learned some behaviours that were quickly put on a variable reinforcement schedule - and she isn't inherently excited to perform them. But if I ask her to weave between my legs, or go in a circle on a stool, or spin, her tail is wagging immediately; whilst if she's asked to beg, she's much slower to respond, and doesn't seem genuinely excited to perform the behaviour.<br /><br />I've been trying, with Lola, to always (or near-always) give some sort of reward for a behaviour. If she sits, I'll open the door. If she downs, I throw the ball. If she targets Jess with her paws ('find your sister!'), I might present her favourite tug toy to her (saved only for training sessions), etc. It could be a result of very minimal use of aversives, or a result of constantly getting some sort of varied reward, but she consistently has happy, relaxed body language and a genuine look of excitement when she's asked to do something she knows.<br /><br />I'm so jealous that you got to go to Clicker Expo though! They need to do a UK one, now. :)Sophiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00721603841095284237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1101438868458660054.post-46303218908791359272011-04-13T10:51:32.763-05:002011-04-13T10:51:32.763-05:00Garrett had an interesting blog post about criteri...Garrett had an interesting blog post about criteria which I think relates to your post, at least abstractly. Address here: http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/04/criteria-is/<br /><br />I mentioned that I was working to increase the value in my dog jumping into my arms as a reward for attention while outside. Arguably jumping into someone's arms can be intrinsically rewarding for a dog, but for my dog she was nervous about it when we first started and the behaviour wasn't naturally rewarding for her. There's such a thin line between the cue and the action that it's hard to distinguish where the rewards come from, and I think it's supposed to be like that. <br /><br />Another example of a reinforcing cue I've been working on is a nose touch without verbal cue (like the commenter above). The cue is my hand outstretched, and it is a reward for my dog paying attention to me. When I stretch my hand out my dog's little nubbin tail starts wagging and she dives for it -- she really seems to enjoy it. Now, I'm sure most dogs aren't huge fans of scrunching their noses up against something -- I would imagine it might be uncomfortable. But because of the amount of value I've put into the game (it's heavily rewarded) my dog gets excited when she's offered the opportunity to play. <br /><br />To relate this back to the Garrett blog entry I mentioned, I think it's the trainers responsibility to make training a joyful experience for the dog. It's absolutely possible to take what was previously a chore for a dog and turn it into a high-value behaviour. It just takes some skill and enthusiasm.Ci Dahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07193590359905966556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1101438868458660054.post-77757234536568087322011-04-13T01:30:35.863-05:002011-04-13T01:30:35.863-05:00I really like your explanations -- I think they...I really like your explanations -- I think they're always clear and show good critical thinking skills on your part. :)<br /><br />I keep up with the clickcompobed Yahoo list, and one of the frequent discussions is attaching high value to obedience cues/behaviors. Because of that, I've been trying hard to make training plain old sit and down fun as well as accurate. I've also sometimes been cuing Dragon to target my hand before he does a Nosework search, to try to build different kinds of reinforcement history and therefore more excitement and more value into it. That's a really good trick to use in the ring, if the dog likes it enough.Joannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09491779584676839564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1101438868458660054.post-39235371904928063332011-04-12T21:12:24.293-05:002011-04-12T21:12:24.293-05:00Did she talk at all about getting rid of the prima...Did she talk at all about getting rid of the primary reinforcers or putting them on a thin schedule? It would seem that if you really wanted a cue for a non self rewarding behavior to act as a reinforcement it would not only have to have a strong reinforcement history but a history that was constantly maintained. <br /><br />I think Lance really loves heeling, although I don't know that I would say the cue to heel is reinforcing, but I also maintain it quite a bit. Heeling is easier to fade rewards because it's a duration behavior but it usually still gets rewarded at the end. <br /><br />I can see his obedience go out getting to the level of a reinforcer but it still goes back to the behavior of running as enjoyable. But even then I don't know how it would maintain without keeping the rate of reinforcement high. In theory I guess it could be reinforced by the cue to do the jumps. But then we're lucky in that jumping is a behavior that's rewarding by itself. Could a cue to finish really keep as a reward to front if you really lessen the treats?Laura and The Corgi, Toller, & Duckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06437492165453445126noreply@blogger.com